Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:46 pm Post subject:
TS and FS: the concepts
TS and FS got to have some of the most interesting concepts ideas ever for a game (don't need to correct me here) Sadly, only a small amount of it made it into the game, and not even to its full potential. Since I'm very interested in all those ideas Westwood had, and SMIFFGIG knows (most of) them, I made this topic to learn more about the concepts of TS.
Please only respond to a question if you (in general) really know the answer for it.
Also, if you have any interesting concept stories and ideas about TS and FS, feel free to tell them.
Alright, here's some stuff to begin with:
1) The power toggle
The power toggle was on of the great new inventions in TS, you could control your power usage and I often used this feature quite a bit. In RA2 however, the whole thing was dropped again, and actually not missed one second. Is the TS power toggle flawed ? Was it how it was supposed to be ?
2) CABAL
CABAL was going to be a 3rd side in FS ? (just like Yuri's side in YR ?) CABAL actually got his own side in the missions, but in skirmish, all his stuff went to Nod. (I never checked his units out sadly). Were there really plans to give him his own unique tech tree and skirmish house ? Were there really some big ideas, units, buildings and superweapons ment for CABAL ? How complete was his concept side ?
3) Misc, about concepts and completion time
How come the game got delayed so much, and a lot of concepts didn't make it in ? I sometimes say TS is horribly rushed because a lot of concepts are not used and bugs etc, yet, the game was delayed a long time. What happened ?
4) SMIFFGIG's quote about TS and FS
"mobile emp's where on the line also as the addon for TS where simply ideas thought up at the same time as TS development but where purposely left out for the addon, however this is a different topic entirely which i will expand on if people are interested enough"
Purposely left out for the addon O_o that sounds actually very mean and money sucking (like EA). However, FS added only few new units and most of them were simple mobile versions. Any light on this ?
5) Craters and pavement
I think the craters and pavement are a nice idea, yet in the end, after a the patches, only the superweapons were able to create craters, and again, this was dropped in RA2. Was this a good or bad idea ?
I think this is quite enough for the first post, I'm interested the most in question 2 ... a whole side dedicated to CABAL and his cyborgs made by Westwood ... now that couldn't have go wrong could it ?
Thanks for your time, and keep this topic at a high level please QUICK_EDIT
The power toggle was on of the great new inventions in TS, you could control your power usage and I often used this feature quite a bit. In RA2 however, the whole thing was dropped again, and actually not missed one second. Is the TS power toggle flawed ? Was it how it was supposed to be ?
This feature is actually EXACTLY how it was intended, and i actually use it quite alot and find it a very useful feature. HOWEVER power was going to play a MUCH bigger role for nod, and this power on/off feature would have been 100 times more useful for them, if WW had implemented what they said they would, for example the Cloak generator would take up that much power that when switched on it would make factories (barracks, war facts, const yards etc) build much slower due to the power drain (feature isnt possible through modding before anyone asks)
There was also a crate goodie that only nod could collect, all that remains of this is the battricon which has many rumours floating around about it
Its actual purpose was to appear in your sidebar as a one time superweapon (not actually a weapon but its best i can explain it in relation to current features) it would when activated give Nod power (no matter if they where in a low power situation or not) for a certain amount of minuets and then when the time was up, would dissapear off the sidebar.
Ion storms would also render nods technology temporarly useless and would uncloak all cloaked units and bases whilst active.
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CABAL was going to be a 3rd side in FS ? (just like Yuri's side in YR ?) CABAL actually got his own side in the missions, but in skirmish, all his stuff went to Nod. (I never checked his units out sadly). Were there really plans to give him his own unique tech tree and skirmish house ? Were there really some big ideas, units, buildings and superweapons ment for CABAL ? How complete was his concept side ?
Yes this is true, CABAL was originally meant to be a third playable side for Firestorm, however i think it was Joe Bostic who said that they considered the idea to much of an ordeal in the end, or something to that effect. I personally translate this into "we dont think firestorm is going to make especially good sales, so we wont bother putting to much work into it and just release it on time instead".
There is even a concept art on Phil robbs site of CABAL as a fighting machine, not just a green head on a building.
However the tech tree and general side was in very early stages
However the Cyborg Reaper was a CABAL side unit, they carted to Nod, im quite sure (but assuming here) that CABAL would have got the cyborgs and Nod would have got the quite appaulingly developed Elite Cadre unit (which was basically a recycled unit, Slavik unit image with the unused chem spray!!! cameo as its cameo)
I can also tell you that Cyborg reapers WHERE meant to make an appearance in TS (NOT FS) the original TS, they where probably for later on as the story developed, weather or not they where meant to be in game at any stage im not sure (look at the excluded Orca Bomber FMV that was made for TS before FS even came out) it was excluded most likely cause it had a fleet of Cyborg reapers being napalmed by orca bombers, and if reapers werent in TS, then it wouldnt have really made to much sense.
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How come the game got delayed so much, and a lot of concepts didn't make it in ? I sometimes say TS is horribly rushed because a lot of concepts are not used and bugs etc, yet, the game was delayed a long time. What happened ?
Firstly as RADE explained and Joe Bostic mentioned too, they kept adding ideas all the time to TS, many of which where not fitting(they considred dropship loadout not to be), didnt play well (tactical nuke, harvester logic with hazard zones/safe zones etc) or were not developed enough to include (scavenger unit) etc
They also raised the hopes of the public far to much, telling them to much and releasing what turned out to be very early screenies.
Which leads me to my next point, the EA take over, and i think this was the main cause of the problems. Set for release in 1998, when EA took over WW there was alot of top guys in WW working on TS that left, why i dont know but something serious went on. I think part of it was EA looked at TS and demanded certain changes (probably to fit EA's marketing concept that tries to reach all audiences and trying to reach maximum sales in watever way possible, thus relating in generally utter crap games)
This anyway held back TS's release until mid 1999 when it turned out as a tottaly different looking game as well as gameplay (crapper basically)
Hence resulting in the huge differences between the 1998 version (as we know them as beta screenies, they where actually virtually release screenies as EA hadnt taken over then) and the release version which was basically stripped, im sure if EA had there way from the start, Tiberian Sun would CERTAINLY not be a 15 certificate but a U. In fact its the only 15 i can think of as far as EA games go.
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Purposely left out for the addon O_o that sounds actually very mean and money sucking (like EA). However, FS added only few new units and most of them were simple mobile versions. Any light on this ?
You hear me right, virtually everything in the FS addon is purposely left out from TS or recycled from unused TS ideas stuff.
The fona was meant to be in TS, the concepts for the fona was made way back before TS was even started on (the ingame stuff) look at Chuck Carters website there all there
The concept sketches date back to 98 and FS was being developed at the same time as TS was being made. There where features that where designed specifically for the addon, but these are really the tip of the edge compared to what the addons original intention was
The drop pod node is simply a the recycled threat rating node unused in TS
The limpet drone was originally a proximity mine, which you deployed and when an enemy was in its range, the top part of it would jet out the ground and home in on the enemy and destroy it.
However this was changed, and instead it used a clamp onto vehicle feature which was EXACTLY like what the Hunter Seekers concept idea was to have, however the hunter seeker was *at your will* when you selected the vehicle it attached to u could click again and it would make a huge explosion. Whilst attached it would act exactly like the current limpet mine does only would find out all the veterancy info (which originally was much more of a feature, and you could see each units amount of kills etc)
and as i mentioned before the Elite Cadre is a recycled slavik unit and chem spray cameo (not that its even used much anyway)
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I think the craters and pavement are a nice idea, yet in the end, after a the patches, only the superweapons were able to create craters, and again, this was dropped in RA2. Was this a good or bad idea ?
well its not only superweaps, it all depends on the Deform=*%* and the DeformThreshold=*#* value of the weapon.
This is dropped in RA2 as RA2 uses a toned down version of the TS engine. By removing deformable terrain, you remove the 8 layers that make up the terrain (as an active part of the game) this reduces alot of CPU calcualations and does actually result in a less laggy game (like TS can lag up for no apparent reason even on fast machines, like my P4 1.7Ghz) but its no real problem, although it was a problem on my old P2 233Mhz MMX, but that machine was a joke anyway
I like the idea of deformable terrain and once again it was going to play a bigger part in TS, there was even talk amogst WW TS developers to make a unit that deformed the terrain as its purpose, however in colaboration with the current game (release TS) it would be a kinda pointless unit, it was of course just an idea like the nod MIRV, something i am planning on putting into TSR if i carry on with TSR
Pavement is a cool idea, its obvious why it was dropped in RA2, its cause RA2 is a pile of crap....... i mean cause RA2 doesnt have Subterranean units , however i do find it a real pain in the ass and quite tedious laying every bloody section of the pavement through my base (especially as it cant lay UNDER buildings thus still possibility of cratering when builings explode) and this is probably another reason why it was dropped in RA2, i dont think it would be fitting with RA2's fast pasted non-tactical cartoony crap game style...... but its really a small price to pay (the time consumsion of laying it) campared to how it fits in with TS, very good
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I think this is quite enough for the first post, I'm interested the most in question 2 ... a whole side dedicated to CABAL and his cyborgs made by Westwood ... now that couldn't have go wrong could it ?
Well the things that did make it from the CABAL side
CABAL core (slightly different to the FMV as the FMV version has no big TV screen with a blue head)
Obelisk of darkness (.ini entry is input as if it was meant to be built)
CABAL obelisk (same as above)
Cyborg reaper (damn cool unit, was meant to feature in some way [certainly FMV] in TS original but was then given to nod, notice the cameo has blue remapping rather than red, and is the only Nod cameo that is facing the wrong direction)
And on the subject of cyborgs, there are only 4 infantry in TS that are the same as they where in the beta (1998 version) of TS, Oxanna, Chem spray inf (unused) and the Cyborg Commando. These infantry look SO much better than the ones that where changed from the beta, look at the beta shots at the infantry.
The reason this is related to cyborgs is cause i think the cyborg is the crappest looking unit in TS, im hoping to fix him up in possible future versions of TSR.
Anyway hope that answered some of your questions Max
I can't explain how much I appreciate your stories, SMIFFGIG, thanks alot!
I will edit this post (or post again if it won't become a double post) if I have more questions, in the mean time others are free to ask or tell about Concept TS and FS.
My next subject could be Nod, as I always find that side very sloppy and "Nod got everything that was left in the game". I will think about a better question for that unless it's good enough already.
And on the subject of cyborgs, there are only 4 infantry in TS that are the same as they where in the beta (1998 version) of TS, Oxanna, Chem spray inf (unused) and the Cyborg Commando.
I fail to see what's so good about the Oxanna shp. It looks just as small and undetailed and sloppy like the others. The unused chemspray shp looks weird aswell, like it's a 2d guy with no depth, hard to explain. When you put your monitor brightness lower, the Cyborg actually looks pretty decent, but it doesn't make his firing tube arm look any better. In the movies, the Cyborg has 2 gattlings for arms and a mounted grenade launcher under his right arm, right ? Again a very powerfull unit toned down ingame.
Also, if you check the Cyborg shp, you'll see 3 death animations and 1 flaming/burning state. What's with this ?
SMIFFGIG (or someone else) can you tell something about the weather plans for TS ? I remember some big stories about snow and water that could freeze and unfreeze. There's ice though in TS, but you know, it's preplaced and doesn't grow or something. I know that the Ion Storm was supposed to be more powerfull, by shutting down a lot more structures and units.
As we know, Naval units weren't included because the creators were probably bored, were there some big Naval concepts though before this got dropped ? QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Location: Laughing at Donald Trump in a rather flat place
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:35 pm Post subject:
Well, origionaly, there was going to be some weather. It would affect your'e units sight range, speed, ect.
However, this feature got cut. _________________ Tiberian Station
Image guy on the Dune Sun\
- Peace - Through - Wossname - QUICK_EDIT
i do think naval units dont fit the tiberian series.
wot Smiff says prooves how money hungry ea r, i never thought of them as being as bad until i read wot smiff says, ts cud have been so much better _________________ Tiberian Eclipse for TW
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Location: Laughing at Donald Trump in a rather flat place
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:09 am Post subject:
They shouldv'e had a MRJ...
And the vehicle that collected scraps from wrecked stuff.
And debris left behind... _________________ Tiberian Station
Image guy on the Dune Sun\
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1) I remember back in the day when TS was still being developed, that there were plans for ... lava and vulcanos. Is this true ?
2) Also, I remember it also said GDI was going to have a Chemical Missile counter in the form of some sort of Engineer, and Nod being able to harvest the Veins always seemed like something that was added in at the last moment. What were the original plans for both GDI and Nod, concerning the Tiberium Veins, the gas and the Weed Eater ?
3) Here's another one that has been bugging me for a long time, but its hard to explain. What's the deal with half the units having cool code names, and other units just have boring names, which just explains literally what the unit can do. Take a look at Nod for example:
they have this unit called Devil's Tongue, and at the same time, they have a unit called Subterranean APC. Nod's aircraft all have codenames, Banshee, Harpy, and then their ground units: Attack Buggy, Attack Bike, Advanced Artillery.
GDI's mech units all have codenames: Wolverine, Titan and Mammoth, and then you have this unit called Hover MLRS and Amphibious APC.
Maybe its just me but I find this a bit weird, cool named units along with dull literall names. Maybe all GDI units should have gotten codenames and Nod's stuff just plain military names like most of them already have.
Alright I hope this gets a nice reply, 1 and 2 are concept material while 3 is more of a discussion thingy.
1) I remember back in the day when TS was still being developed, that there were plans for ... lava and vulcanos. Is this true ?
I havent heard this before so i cant comment on it, but i know that there was definitly going to be weather effects, this range from winds (which would determine things such as the directional movement of tiberium gas [use now but in a very abscure and purely coding sense]) wind would even slowly over time effect the terrain (by blowing sand etc)
There would also be rain/snow, rivers that freezed over (not designated areas where ice CONSTANTLY appears, but all rivers would freeze over due time etc etc
Max Lee wrote:
2) Also, I remember it also said GDI was going to have a Chemical Missile counter in the form of some sort of Engineer, and Nod being able to harvest the Veins always seemed like something that was added in at the last moment. What were the original plans for both GDI and Nod, concerning the Tiberium Veins, the gas and the Weed Eater ?
This was actually a counter to meteor storms and i assume nods meteor special itself (which itself was not implemented) as meteors where originally going to spawn Tiberium Veins rather than Tiberium
Not only this but Weed (tiberium veins) was originally going to be MUCH more devestating, as it would grow at an extremely faster rate and would also spread without the need of a veinhole moster (much like tiberium does when it has no TIBTRE, at a slower pace i would expect)
A small leftover of this can actually be found in the original TS Rules.ini as shown below
Code:
VeinholeGrowthRate=300 ; was 3000
VeinholeShrinkRate=100 ; was 500
Max Lee wrote:
GDI were going to have a weed clearer unit to counter this, this was a concept unit and was mentioned more than once (but at different stages of development) on being both an infantry and a vehicle.
Take a look at Nod for example:
they have this unit called Devil's Tongue, and at the same time, they have a unit called Subterranean APC. Nod's aircraft all have codenames, Banshee, Harpy, and then their ground units: Attack Buggy, Attack Bike, Advanced Artillery.
-"Devils Tongue flame tank" was actually the Beta version name for the flame tank in "Tiberian Dawn", i suppose WW liked the name still by TS and decided to christen the Subterranean Flame tank with it only narrowing it down to "Devils Tongue".
-Attack Buggy is the same as in TD, kept for continuity i would guess
-Attack Bike is one of the most ridiculous names in TS, TD had a better name of "Recon Bike" which i have changed it back to in TSR
-Harpy was not the original name, the aircraft was originally ment to have rotors and was known as the "Apache II" which keeps continuity with TD
-Banshee was also not an original name as it was originally known as the "Scrin Fighter" why this was changed i do not know, but during development there was actually a mention that "The term ""Scrin"" is no longer used in the Tiberian Sun universe" this could have caused the name change to the banshee, however as we know this was later decided against (as we have the "Scrin Wreckage" and numerous other relations to the word"
Max Lee wrote:
GDI's mech units all have codenames: Wolverine, Titan and Mammoth, and then you have this unit called Hover MLRS and Amphibious APC.
Well originally it was as follows
Wolverine = Small Mech
Titan = Medium Mech
Mammoth MkII = Heavy Mech
and there you have ur equivilents with RA1 and TD in unit terms. However "Ill take an educated guess at this one" originally it was said that the "Mammoth" would not make a return in TS, however there was constant pestering about it and it was eventually said by one of the WW team that the Mammoth would make a re-appearance in some form or another
I believe this is wen they simply change the name of the "Heavy Mech" to the "Mammoth Mk2" and to prevent things from getting messy the Titan and Wolverine probably followed suit
But as we know there is at the end of TD a FMV showing a unit similar to the Wolverine knowin as the "Prototype power suit X" or something like that
Wether this happened before the HMEC name change or after i could never say, but the SMEC previous to its current name did have "Powered Assault Armour" and "Powered Assault Suit" (or something similar) as development names and you can see "Powered Assault Armour" in some of the beta 98 screenies.
Max Lee wrote:
Maybe all GDI units should have gotten codenames and Nod's stuff just plain military names like most of them already have.
I tottaly disagree, if they where all standardized description names it would be boring, if they where all codenames you wouldnt know what the hell ur building, its a nice balance how it is _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Thanks again I too remember that water was supposed to freeze under circumstences instead of being part of the map. Would have been awesome maybe, to have your group of Naval units cruising around on the water and then they suddenly get stuck because the water freezed.
Am I right that the E1 infantry is the GDI model basic infantry, thus Nod having the GDI basic infantry aswell, instead of the cool black leathered with red helmet infantry, you see in the title image right here at the top ? Could have used the RA2 code (GI / Conscript) QUICK_EDIT
Would have been awesome maybe, to have your group of Naval units cruising around on the water and then they suddenly get stuck because the water freezed
yep, although naval units (such as the TD gunboat etc) were never intended for TS
Max Lee wrote:
Am I right that the E1 infantry is the GDI model basic infantry, thus Nod having the GDI basic infantry aswell, instead of the cool black leathered with red helmet infantry, you see in the title image right here at the top
Yep its basically the GDI model, however the beta version of the E1 infantry is generic looking and could be for either (stupid mistake they made when they pointlessly redone the infantry)
Max Lee wrote:
Could have used the RA2 code (GI / Conscript)
WW could have done loads of things if it wasnt for many reasons (i wont repeat this discussion ). The coding for the E1 (as well as many other things) is basically a mirror of its coding in TD and RA1 (with it being used generically for everything from Crew= to Desguise=) _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Location: Laughing at Donald Trump in a rather flat place
Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 2:17 am Post subject:
IMO, TS is a piece of crap compared to what we know of the beta...
Just a question, was there any plan to make fire more realistic in TS in the beta?
Fire in TS is so unrealistic it's not funny. It doesn't spread either... Even if it spread just a little , I would be happy... _________________ Tiberian Station
Image guy on the Dune Sun\
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 4:25 pm Post subject:
Q2 CABAL
It is true that CABAL was meant to be in FS. If you use the XCC utilities to look at the CABAL core, it has build up animations! Maybe making CABAL playable WAS too much trouble. If he was playable then players would want to build the core defender, but westwood would have to make it weaker than the singleplayer campaign version and that wouldn't be right would it? _________________ Yuris Revenge: The Second War is now up and running once again!
Check out the site, www.yrsecondwar.tk for updates and news.
Yes, that's possible, but it's kind of weird, why create an entire buildup anim if it's only going to show once? I mean, you could just as easily drop a multi-missile on the core or something.... QUICK_EDIT
I find it interesting if you compare TD with TS, that all TS GDI units are basically just upgraded TD units, with the exception of the Disruptor. While Nod on the other hand also looked a bit "sloppy" and very different in TD. I find its Light Tank very out of place, and the SSM launcher very interesting, which I've never seen in action. Napalm eh ?
Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Location: Laughing at Donald Trump in a rather flat place
Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:28 pm Post subject:
IMO, the light tank should've been in TS; the tick tank is really more of a medium tank, and that's supposedly what the titan evolved from... _________________ Tiberian Station
Image guy on the Dune Sun\
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IMO, the light tank should've been in TS; the tick tank is really more of a medium tank, and that's supposedly what the titan evolved from...
Judging from the concept art and 3d renders, the Tick Tank looks like a Light Tank to me. It has a very small turret with 2 very small barrels and doesn't look that strong altogether. The ability to make it deploy and become as strong as a medium tank, but losing mobility, is a nice idea. To bad the thing became a Titan counter in the end. I hope SMIFFGIG agrees on this QUICK_EDIT
i do agree with that max lee, the Tick tank was concieved as of being a light tank (and then maxing up its armour etc when deployed)
It also originally had a 1 barrel and 1 machine gun mounted onto it (due for next version of TSR) this is only visible in the highest resolution pic of the tick tank though _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I have some TD beta shots if you're interested... Obviously they look a lot better than the final product. Notice how Nod apparently has the Medium Tank, and the trees look a lot bigger.
Edit: Oops, I thought I saw some demand for beta TD info in here but apparently I was wrong.
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_________________ Last edited by GeckoYamori on Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:00 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
the most interesting of which is the one with the infantry moving in water (with the water up to there hips) and the landing crafts at an angle which suggests they where controlable (unlike in final product where they were not controlable and only had 2 different facing angles)
EDIT: Something which is quite hilarious, those screenies posted above, are actually the resolution that the original DOS TD would have been played in, so imagine them stretched full screen LMAO _________________ QUICK_EDIT
ahh memories, the original humvee rocked. I noticed a lot of the GDI TS units are rather slow, i.e. like the soviets in RA1 had no decent scout unit.
I guess jumpjet infantry/ Hover MLRS were scouts but far too slow.
The mlrs was intended to be their "Artillery" long range and nice damage. Now it is merely a support unit..... needs a damage buff imo. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Location: Laughing at Donald Trump in a rather flat place
Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:01 pm Post subject:
IMO, the hover mlrs isn't that good of artillery, as it has way too short of range... _________________ Tiberian Station
Image guy on the Dune Sun\
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I remember the last GDI mission where you use them as cannon fodder, for the cloaked obelisk on the small island so your captured nod artillery could kick there ass
I just think both sides, need a fast unit with good sight, its such a drag trying to reveal a map when crates are likely to naplam your infantry or blow up your vehicles _________________ QUICK_EDIT
just think both sides, need a fast unit with good sight, its such a drag trying to reveal a map when crates are likely to naplam your infantry or blow up your vehicles
Nod has Recon bike (hence the name recon (Reconasance), fastest land vehicle in game (TSR)
GDI has the best scout unit of all, the jump jet infantry. No need to worry about crates and u can explore litterally every part of a map (setting up waypoints often works well too. Plus if ur enemy doesnt know ur tactics, you can explore there entire base before they can say "Yippie Ki Aye".
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The mlrs was intended to be their "Artillery" long range and nice damage. Now it is merely a support unit..... needs a damage buff imo.
You guys think the range should be increased and maybe armour decreased or something ? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I think the MLRS is fine as it is. I consider GDI's artillery the Disruptor anyway.
I agree with Allied General though, scouting and revealing is very uneasy in TS, maybe we are too used to the RA series where you have Spy Satelites, Spy Planes, Spies and what not. The Recon Bike is fast yes, but it has too small sight, unless you changed that in TSR.
The only great scout unit unmodded TS has, is the Sensor Array. It is quite fast and might have the longest sight range of all. The thing is expensive though. QUICK_EDIT
Hmm, I have no idea what I've done with the manual right now, but I can remember reading something interesting about the Cyborg Commando.. Apparently he was meant to have some kind of anti aircraft missle and his primary weapon was meant to be a fire ball O_o
What's the story with that Smiff? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
plasma ball much cooler IMO (and adding a flamethrower just doesnt work, users of earlier TSR version my understand me)
In a beta shot, it actually shows the CYC2 firing a missile (although its most likely doctored
Oh and a future change to TSR will be the implementation of normal cyborgs having there machine/chaingun and a nade launcher (just like in the FMV) _________________ QUICK_EDIT
yeah the sight= was the biggest issue. Does TSR have spies? the coolest thing is inflitrate a radar facility and see what the enemy sees
Also the recon bike, give back its anti-aircraft power pronto... it is so lame that in the future a recon bike can only shoot at air targets when elite >__<
Also why are jumpjet infantry not immune to veins...? WW fixed this bug on a tiberian lifeform (the fiend) but seem to forget about jumjet dudes? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
hmm.. the "cnc2tease" clip from C&C TD suggests that Tiberian Sun was going to be something along the lines of a FPS.. what's the score here? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
What happened to Dr. Moebius in TD ? Why wasn't he in TS ? His research on Tiberium was a very nice sidestory in TD, while in TS, other than that the planet was even more infested than it already was, Tiberium doesn't play a very big part does it ? QUICK_EDIT
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TS and FS: the concepts
. TSR is really good 
