Fair enough, you are right, my assumptions were faulty and I apologise.
I have to ask then, why do some people seem to be pushing for modders to adopt OpenRA as the platform for their mods now. As you say, the engine is under heavy development which will only increase the development overhead on a mod team even if it will lead to greater flexibilty in the directions the mods can go in down the road. Surely it is better for them to stick with the existing engines that have known limitations for now and then look at porting when the TS like mod features have stablised? QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:10 pm Post subject:
The further you go, the tougher it'll be to convert IMO.
The conversion is already slow and tedious, and it'll get bigger with every playtest coming by.
Maintaining a mod against playtests alone is easier in the long term than waiting it to catch up "WW platform X" where it's not just the current X amount of features need to be converted, but X+Y additional ones. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
For mods that are in the initial phases maybe, but even there, there are additional efforts needed if they are planning to use developing features where the API's might not be settled or the features may not end up finished. People who targeted ares features in development such as bounty logic or chrono prison were left with incomplete features in just the same way.
You say its easier, but assuming some porting tools are developed to speed up the translation process, it might be a safer bet waiting and in the mean time, you have a stable platform to develop against and constrain your ambition.
Anyhow, its a call modders will have to make individually, but I don't think jumping ship to OpenRA being the easiest course is a clear cut as you make out. There is also the increased load of whiny modders making demands of the OpenRA dev team to consider too if a bunch jump ship QUICK_EDIT
I have to ask then, why do some people seem to be pushing for modders to adopt OpenRA as the platform for their mods now. As you say, the engine is under heavy development which will only increase the development overhead on a mod team even if it will lead to greater flexibilty in the directions the mods can go in down the road. Surely it is better for them to stick with the existing engines that have known limitations for now and then look at porting when the TS like mod features have stablised?
I can't explain or justify other people's motivations, but I can give my own opinion (which is often controversial): I agree completely. I think that big total-conversion style mods with teams that don't want to become actively involved in OpenRA development should steer clear of it for the immediate future.
We have utility rules that automate many of the rules changes as we adapt traits, and these are mostly adequate for smaller scale mods (i.e. those that build off one of our main mods, and add new units, factions, missions, etc). These mods are still going to need to invest a few hours each new release (every few months) to adapt to the new changes, however. There have been several mods like this that have survived for a couple of releases before dying off due to lack of time or enthusiasm.
We can say all we want about flexibility and yada yada, but the fact is that if the engine doesn't yet offer them what they need, and if they aren't willing to adapt or able to contribute towards making those features happen, then it is a waste of everybody's time for them to convert to OpenRA now. There is no telling how long they might need to wait and keep maintaining their non-releasable mod. That's just silly.
The benefits of converting to OpenRA come when you're either willing to adapt to the new engine (which means giving up some things you might be used to from the original engines, but gaining a giant bunch of new possibilities in return) or able to help implement the missing feature that you need. "help" doesn't even need to be code: A well written feature request that precisely defines the expected behaviour would be fantastic and greatly improves the chances of someone else implementing it.
As an example (from the DTA thread) "Add meteors" is not a well written feature request. We don't know the implementation details of the original meteor code, and it usually takes significantly more effort to research details like that than it does to implement the actual code. If somebody can describe exactly what they want from a feature, then we can implement it or explain how they no longer need to abuse that feature to do something completely different (all too common in C&C mods) which we can support in a better way. QUICK_EDIT
As an example (from the DTA thread) "Add meteors" is not a well written feature request. We don't know the implementation details of the original meteor code, and it usually takes significantly more effort to research details like that than it does to implement the actual code. If somebody can describe exactly what they want from a feature, then we can implement it or explain how they no longer need to abuse that feature to do something completely different (all too common in C&C mods) which we can support in a better way.
I wasn't the original writer of that feature request
Overall, that's a great and honest post, and one that is nice to see from the OpenRA lead developer (?) despite all the marketing. As an example, a lot of people keep asking us for a OpenRA version of DTA, but right now the engine simply doesn't do what we need it to do. Nor do we want to constantly fix features that get broken with new playtests. We'd rather focus those resources on making our project better and then switch when (if?) the OpenRA engine has matured enough. OpenRA is a promising project and we're keeping our eye on it, but currently it's just not suitable for our purposes. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
I'd like to interject that some people are apparently greatly underestimating the hoops we jump through and the time and effort we spend on not breaking features in new playtests.
And pchote sold the automatic YAML upgrading short, IMO - it is perfectly capable of upgrading a mod (size is irrelevant, complexity might be a factor) from one release to another. We also sometimes spend more time on that than is actually beneficial to the project, but we do it so that we ensure thirdparty maps (and mods) can upgrade as easily as possible.
That said, it's your choice to sit and wait and not switch, but let's not move the argument from the DTA thread here. QUICK_EDIT
Running the utility is one thing. It converts simple trait renamings well, but if one trait got replaced by 2 or 3 to become more modular or even got replaced with the very dynamic https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/wiki/Actor-Upgrades system things aren't easily converted. Most of the recent refactors were done synchronously on all supported mods with automation to do the grunt work, but manual tweaking afterwards often improving quality and maintainability. Regressions were quickly identified and fixed. To me the only chance to stay up to date is to keep track of the https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/wiki/Changelog even look at the diffs yourself https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/commits/bleed to see what changed and in what way.
Solely running automated tools on a weekly basis without any further touch up and breakage will occur. I am not sure if https://github.com/Phrohdoh/OpenRA is more broken than it was before or if the RA2 mod never really was fully set up. Sadly the git history was erased during rebasing with large squashings. I noticed turret rendering problems and also related crashes. They can be easily fixed though. However they aren't. When I last had a look a single person was directly committing and leaving the master in a known to be broken state. For example skirmish matches will crash instantly. It is even documented in https://github.com/Phrohdoh/OpenRA/issues although the fix is a trivial one liner. However no effort is made to upstream fixes or to keep the master stable.
RA2 is the next step so I am surprised the core team didn't want to embrace it and help. A missed opportunity and also a bad signal towards RA2 mods which will now stay away instead of joining the community as new developers and testers. An unmaintained one-man show RA2 mod will stay a death birth and give a wrong impression on how well the isometric engine support already matured. There was a reason I invested a lot of time into boring static rule analysis "lint" features and even maintain two continuous integration systems as well as set up static code analysis and quality metrics. Also the recent addition of unit tests will help keep the engine stable without rejecting contributions and innovation. Last edited by Matthias M. on Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:39 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere in Germany
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:52 pm Post subject:
Matthias M. wrote:
RA2 is the next step so I am surprised the core team didn't want to embrace it and help.
As mentioned before, the problem is mostly in the added pull request review & update overhead this would create (and I suspect we'd get lots of yaml and logic contribution PRs specifically for RA2 and would break the 100 open PRs barrier in no time). We're struggling enough in that regard with the shipping mods + TS.
Matthias M. wrote:
However no effort is made to upstream fixes or to keep the master stable.
I have just completed applying the fixes from your PR to my local master which already had all yaml bugs squashed yesterday. Can be found on my OpenRA repo now. Much easier and faster if nobody has to review it. QUICK_EDIT
Yes, I agree. The very formal, delayed and nit-picky review process can be a pain, but more eyeballs and testers usually also find more problems and sometimes even have better ideas on how to solve them. Also the automated tests running for every change there should assist.
People are getting more and more confused by it, but so far the current place for development, even posting bugs is https://github.com/Phrohdoh/OpenRA
There are lot's of issues and most of them are simple yaml misconfigurations and bit rot. I guess the project could need a helping hand. Contributing to it might be a nice way to jump into OpenRA modding. QUICK_EDIT
Proudly presenting the work of xanax for the Red Alert 2 mod!
There are some slight adjustments to be made in yaml and a bit of work ahead (the observer UI has yet to be completed), but he has done a fantastic job so far!
It is with a sad heart that I tell you all I am stepping down from my role as the RA2 maintainer (admittedly I did a terrible job) and have arranged to hand the project's leadership over to another member of the OpenRA development team.
The contributions existing on my repo will be assessed and hopefully merged before the reins are officially handed over.
Of course the issues are still open and usable, feel free to comment or open new ones!
I had fun watching the mod grow from OmegaBolt's humble beginnings into something with many contributors. QUICK_EDIT
When i look to lastest SSs, i can say we have done very much things so far. But still lots of other things to do. I was planning to record a video yesterday but it runs on too low FPS for it on my computer.
I could record for you. Is there a playable version already? QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Mon May 09, 2016 6:03 pm Post subject:
I'm atm trying to get a new AS internal out but I guess after that's done, I hop back to tackling some of the missing features.
ATM I assume that won't happen 'til late-May (2 weeks from today on) though at best. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Nice progress. but the icons of allied seems a bit bright maybe you have to remake them. I would love to contribute but unlike C++ i am weak at C# _________________
Proudly presenting the work of xanax for the Red Alert 2 mod!
There are some slight adjustments to be made in yaml and a bit of work ahead (the observer UI has yet to be completed), but he has done a fantastic job so far!
It is with a sad heart that I tell you all I am stepping down from my role as the RA2 maintainer (admittedly I did a terrible job) and have arranged to hand the project's leadership over to another member of the OpenRA development team.
The contributions existing on my repo will be assessed and hopefully merged before the reins are officially handed over.
Of course the issues are still open and usable, feel free to comment or open new ones!
I had fun watching the mod grow from OmegaBolt's humble beginnings into something with many contributors.
The radar offline images of allied and soviets are the same ones as in Mental Omega 3.0 BR2 radar offline images of factions. See Speeders' "On Mental" edited BR1 Gameplays. _________________ If you are a MetalHead (Heavy Metal Fan) and don't want to be a metalhead, Just remove your metal ball from your head. �:p .
QUICK_EDIT
They look similar, they're not the same. It's just a standard logo on a higher quality background. Maybe Tomsons made both sets of them. So what? _________________ mentalomega.com QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 10:54 pm Post subject:
AFAIK xanax made the sidebars entirely, without help.
Besides, the OpenRA radaroffline images are bigger than their YR counterparts, the fact they don't have any upsize blurring tells they are made from scratch from what's available. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
The radar offline images of allied and soviets are the same ones as in Mental Omega 3.0 BR2 radar offline images of factions. See Speeders' "On Mental" edited BR1 Gameplays.
AFAIK xanax made the sidebars entirely, without help.
Sometimes your knowledge is quite questionable.
Speeder wrote:
They look similar, they're not the same. It's just a standard logo on a higher quality background. Maybe Tomsons made both sets of them. So what?
Well they are pretty much the same, its the same asset, it wasn't made EXCLUSIVELY FOR MO, it was made just to remake the radar images.
Of course I did. I couldn't let the heresy of uber shitly upscaled images stand.
I even went as far as making the whole UI,even remaking the pieces that looked bad(and then figured out how WW did certain things and continued on remaking even more pieces), no clue how much of my version xanax used tho.
Graion Dilach wrote:
Besides, the OpenRA radaroffline images are bigger than their YR counterparts, the fact they don't have any upsize blurring tells they are made from scratch from what's available.
Yes! "from what's available", thats it, thats exactly it
_________________ Tiberian Dawn, Red Alert, Tiberian Sun ,Red Alert 2,Renegade, Command & Conquer 3,Tiberium and Tiberium Wars and Westwood related image & video archive
https://picasaweb.google.com/113361105083292812413?noredirect=1
Skype live:tomsons26
Don't forget to state who are you otherwise i'll ignore the invite QUICK_EDIT
*I* made this (openra) RA2 UI by re-using some elements from the original UI and by creating new elements from scratch (the production & order buttons, among other things).
Here is the original UI (that I used):
Here is Tomsons26's mockup UI:
I couldn't reuse Tomsons26's mockup because his Soviets production buttons didn't match the Allies' production buttons dimensions.
OpenRA can have different UIs, one for each faction but there is only one ingame-player.yaml file (which is used to declare buttons dimensions for the two factions).
I am not saying Tomsons26's mockup was bad but because of this OpenRA limitation, I had to make sure same buttons of the two factions are the same dimensions.
Plus, I am not a fan of the Allies' production buttons (that's why I created new ones).
The OpenRA project has a Github repository to upload art files in: https://github.com/OpenRA/ArtSrc
But I wait for the RA2 mod to become more complete to upload my PSD file (for the RA2 UI). Because, atm, it's not 100% clear (to me at least), if we keep the three buttons or two buttons at the top. See https://github.com/OpenRA/ra2/pull/95
The two faction logos were indeed made by Tomsons26, and if I forgot to credit him, I am sincerely sorry (I respect him as well as his art skills). But to be honest, I planned to do it later, once my PSD file is on /OpenRA/ArtSrc Last edited by xanax on Sat May 28, 2016 7:45 pm; edited 2 times in total QUICK_EDIT
The retraces look so good, I couldn't distinguish them from the original.
Phrohdoh wrote:
In fact they hide a lot of limitations: the missing ore spawn and the lighting effect. Both problems are fixed in current OpenRA/ra2 master already. QUICK_EDIT
*I* made this (openra) RA2 UI by re-using some elements from the original UI and by creating new elements from scratch (the production & order buttons, among other things).
Here is the original UI (that I used):
Here is Tomsons26's mockup UI:
I couldn't reuse Tomsons26's mockup because his Soviets production buttons didn't match the Allies' production buttons dimensions.
OpenRA can have different UIs, one for each faction but there is only one ingame-player.yaml file (which is used to declare buttons dimensions for the two factions).
I am not saying Tomsons26's mockup was bad but because of this OpenRA limitation, I had to make sure same buttons of the two factions are the same dimensions.
Plus, I am not a fan of the Allies' production buttons (that's why I created new ones).
The OpenRA project has a Github repository to upload art files in: https://github.com/OpenRA/ArtSrc
But I wait for the RA2 mod to become more complete to upload my PSD file (for the RA2 UI). Because, atm, it's not 100% clear (to me at least), if we keep the three buttons or two buttons at the top. See https://github.com/OpenRA/ra2/pull/95
The two faction logos were indeed made by Tomsons26, and if I forgot to credit him, I am sincerely sorry (I respect him as well as his art skills). But to be honest, I planned to do it later, once my PSD file is on /OpenRA/ArtSrc
Is it me, or does the ingame UI look brighter than both the original and mockup? Palette restrictions? _________________ "Don't beg for things; Do it yourself or you'll never get anything." QUICK_EDIT
That's just Apple's shitty "hurdurhur we never use standards" color space garbage. _________________ Tiberian Dawn, Red Alert, Tiberian Sun ,Red Alert 2,Renegade, Command & Conquer 3,Tiberium and Tiberium Wars and Westwood related image & video archive
https://picasaweb.google.com/113361105083292812413?noredirect=1
Skype live:tomsons26
Don't forget to state who are you otherwise i'll ignore the invite QUICK_EDIT
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