Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:51 am Post subject:
Need clearly defined wishes for TSO
Right, now that i'm seriously thinking about how to do stuff, i'm going to need loads of community input.
I need clearly defined sizes of "large" maps, in amount of cells, a warfactory is 3x4 cells
I need to know if you want first person controlling of units.
I need to know if you want a fully free moving camera, or the standard zoom/rotate around camera from RTSes
I also need to know what size a ground texture should be( in pixels ) for a 256x256 cell map _________________ Micro TS
Portable, no campaign, movies or music, just the engine and needed resources for skirmish and lan. QUICK_EDIT
Maps- compared to TS size- 384*384, with double resolution (e.g size of one tile in TS would be drawn by 4 quads in TS Open)
That would be pretty much the maximum, and would require something like GF6600 to run on, say, 15 FPS (barely playable).
First person- Not required, not from start definitely. If you need to limit yourself very much to build engine where you could implement it in future, trash it.
camera- RTS is enough for me, but I don't see a problem to implement free as a moddable thing. Modder will get worse culling with free camera, but that's his decision. Definitely free camera for scripted scenes if you ask me.
8*8 per quarter-tile (quad), that's 16*16 per TS cell. More as an ability for modders. Your method trashes texture memory, if you used a different, I'd say 32*32:P _________________ Time will tell...
Sooner or later...
Time will tell... QUICK_EDIT
Maps- compared to TS size- 384*384, with double resolution (e.g size of one tile in TS would be drawn by 4 quads in TS Open)
That would be pretty much the maximum, and would require something like GF6600 to run on, say, 15 FPS (barely playable).
First person- Not required, not from start definitely. If you need to limit yourself very much to build engine where you could implement it in future, trash it.
camera- RTS is enough for me, but I don't see a problem to implement free as a moddable thing. Modder will get worse culling with free camera, but that's his decision. Definitely free camera for scripted scenes if you ask me.
8*8 per quarter-tile (quad), that's 16*16 per TS cell. More as an ability for modders. Your method trashes texture memory, if you used a different, I'd say 32*32:P
sounds feasible, though, i need to work shitloads on improving a lot of stuff _________________ Micro TS
Portable, no campaign, movies or music, just the engine and needed resources for skirmish and lan. QUICK_EDIT
Abilerty for multiple turrets on units with multiple weapons on each turret.
Turrets are able to operate independently. (eg can all fire at the same time and if they can't hit the target the player choose will find an alternate target)
Less hardcoded stuff like the tibirum types or the armour types. QUICK_EDIT
Abilerty for multiple turrets on units with multiple weapons on each turret.
Turrets are able to operate independently. (eg can all fire at the same time and if they can't hit the target the player choose will find an alternate target)
Less hardcoded stuff like the tibirum types or the armour types.
gotcha, next, make these NEEDED things, not optionally nice things. _________________ Micro TS
Portable, no campaign, movies or music, just the engine and needed resources for skirmish and lan. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Location: Flying into hostile territory
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject:
Homeworld 2 had targetable Subsystems on their their larger units maybe something similar here on structures? Also the turrets should be able to select individual targets. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Homeworld 2 had targetable Subsystems on their their larger units maybe something similar here on structures? Also the turrets should be able to select individual targets.
turrets was said by dragonfly, and, hmm, an interesting idea, subsystems, but, no, what kind of effect would it have in structures ? _________________ Micro TS
Portable, no campaign, movies or music, just the engine and needed resources for skirmish and lan. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Location: Flying into hostile territory
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject:
In HW2 they tended to be upgrades. But also you could target the weapon systems Hanger bays and the engines anyone of these could be destroyed and when that happened such as a destroyed engines it would no longer be able to move. I don't think he said about individual turret targeting _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject:
Especially for the Mechs, I like that idea. Owning Titans with ease sounds fun. _________________ PPM's Reichstrollfuherer, 236th Trollenparties brigade. QUICK_EDIT
Especially for the Mechs, I like that idea. Owning Titans with ease sounds fun.
you know, we ARE trying to keep TS's gameplay _________________ Micro TS
Portable, no campaign, movies or music, just the engine and needed resources for skirmish and lan. QUICK_EDIT
I think subsystems is pretty pointless. To be realistic the subsystem strength and overall strength would be so close you might as well have destroyed the whole thing in the 1st place rather than take the turret off.
In HW2 it worked cause a subsytem was mayby only 1/50th of the size of the overall ship which is kinda like pixels in TS in comparison. (if you look for the windows on HW2 ships you will realise even a fighter is somewhat bigger than a CnC warfactory)
Other wish: Some sort of list showing what Judeau is planing to add and what hes not going to add. QUICK_EDIT
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject:
Re: Need clearly defined wishes for TSO
Judeau wrote:
I need to know if you want first person controlling of units.
I think that isn't the moment to do a "Dungeon Keeper" style of game applied in a RTS C&C game but the addition (in a far future) of controlling temporally an unit/defense will be an genuine feature on RTS games with "C&C style"... _________________ C&C:Reloaded > GDI, Nod, Allies, Soviets & Yuri... & TS terrain!
[ Discord ] [ ModDB ] [ YouTube Channel ] [ Telegram Channel ] [ Official Forums@Revora ] QUICK_EDIT
1. The ability to recognize a threat and to rate threats for each unit. Simple, they will automatically, if the player wont order otherwise, target the enemy unit that would be the biggest threat. I'm talking about the feature that was cut-out from TS. Also applied for defenses.
2. Zoom-in and out feature would be good for those who like to play with large resolution, and if you see something behind a tree, for example, you could zoom in (and perhaps roll the camera, not sure) to see what's behind the tree. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Units will pick the best target not the most dangerous or 1st target.
Eg a rocket infantry will attack a tank rather than a sniper where as a nod buggy would attack the sniper rather than the tank.
Mayby this could be done by giving units a preference to attack units with certain armour types eg for a Titan:
Thus the titan will prefer to engage heavy armour units which it is most effective against then light armour units and structures leaving the infantry which it realy isn't effective at killing to last. (at which point useing this sytem a Wolverien or something would have proably taken care of them. QUICK_EDIT
I think that a research system is a must (altough it wasn't in TS), also, I'd like normal maps (or at least Emboss Bump Mapping-see NeHe). _________________ Time will tell...
Sooner or later...
Time will tell... QUICK_EDIT
<i>-- A pardon in advance if this has been discussed prior to my post or if this is incorrect thread.</i>
just a suggestion for the AI.
where it creates a log based of what you build and what time to determine when to attack. etc. rather than just universal values. IE. player creates a profile. and the engine uses this to log players gaming style.
hopefully making it even more ''heuristic'' if you will.
also giving the Threat Rating system more meat so it can help the AI utilize its own units more properly in this endeavor. IE titan engages armor units whilst wolverines concentrate on infantry. etc.
and also the ability to customize AI personalities or AIGenerals. rather than easy,medium, hard. one can have variants of Braindead, Turtler,Rush tactics, etc.
well thanks for hearing me out, and good luck on further developments. _________________ Delirium.. QUICK_EDIT
mayby have a number of ai files like.
AI_Easy01.ini
AI_Easy02.ini
AI_Med01.ini
AI_Med02.ini
AI_Hard01.ini
AI_Hard02.ini
When the player chooses the difficulty the game random selects an AI of that difficulty for each ai. If the diffrent version of the ai are coded to have diffrent playing styles it could make for a far more intresting game.
(eg some will try to get 20 tanks on your base in 5 min where as some will build defences and try to get 20 harvesters so they can beat you in a war of attrition) QUICK_EDIT
I don't think the AI should be scripted at all. Maybe only a script system (with and/or logic!) as a start, and then code something more advanced (typical realtime script generation, or a learning genetic algorithm) _________________ Time will tell...
Sooner or later...
Time will tell... QUICK_EDIT
if the ai moves away from the current system good ai can still be coded in text but it will take a complex engine to read them in.
(eg something that can handle varibles as well as if, else if, else, while etc) bit like my SW screipt suggestion
I don't like the idea of hardcoded ai as if someone adds even a single unit to a mod they will need to edit the source to get the ai to use it which is beyond the scope for most modders.
And a generic ai which will use what ever is available is very complex and hard to code. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 24 May 2004 Location: Flanders (Be) Posts:300000001
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:30 pm Post subject:
I'd prefer having a fully free moving camera... it was wickedly awesome in Dark Reign II, to be literally between your troops, with lasers flashing all around your camera position. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I'd like a SupCom style camera.
Normally its a regular RTS camera (Plus you can zoom really far out), but while holding the space bar, you can rotate the camera in any direction, and it goes back to the usual top-down perspective when you release.
The current camera would be very, very bad for and RTS, in my opinion, its way too hard to get around the map.
Also from SupCom is a really cool terrain system.
You have a height map, say 1024px square.
Then you have a colour map, half the size of the terrain. The thing is, the colour map isn't used to colour the map, it controls layers of textures. This gives you five layers of textures, the base texture, the red layer, the green layer, the blue layer, and the alpha layer, displayed in that order. Each layer is assigned a texture, and that texture is repeated across the map and shown only where that texture is visible. The amount of each channel in the colour map decides the opacity of the corresponding layer at that location.
In SupCom, each layer is also assigned a normal map, which is great for faking small details. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Dec 2004 Location: Tiberium Research Center N27
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:24 am Post subject:
Nyerguds wrote:
I'd prefer having a fully free moving camera... it was wickedly awesome in Dark Reign II, to be literally between your troops, with lasers flashing all around your camera position.
And don't forget Ground control _________________ DUNK! QUICK_EDIT
I'm thinking about having a non-scriptable AI that evaluates units on their use, so you don't have to add them in yourself, you can make seperate ai personalities
one would favour heavy armour, other infantry, one would turtle and cosntantly launch airstrikes and arty, simply by setting higher weights to different units, think the TA ai, but then a LOT better, preferably with each personality learning from it's matches.
on research : how would you use that ?
on camera : zooming in is pretty much a standard feature, rotating too, don't worry about those
what i do mean with a free camera, is not how it is now, but simply the ability to completely move yourself down to the ground, rotate around stuff, strafe, etc, etc
On targeting logic : i'll have the ai for each unit properly evaluate nearby threats, individually per turret and the turret's weapons, and if something is manually targeted, all turrets will aim at that target, i also plan to have moving attacks, like in RA2 _________________ Micro TS
Portable, no campaign, movies or music, just the engine and needed resources for skirmish and lan. QUICK_EDIT
Hardcoded agent system/genetic algorithm/whatever better maybe except neural network AI can either compute(easy) or _learn_(hard) what are the units good for. Of course, it's hard to program. I think scripts should be used as a base, but (in future, rather low priority) hardcoded AI would generate these scripts at runtime instead of loading them from a file. _________________ Time will tell...
Sooner or later...
Time will tell... QUICK_EDIT
Do we have a file repository already setup for OTS, or some sort of configuration management? It would be cool if we have something like that in place, just to manage all the source we are writing, such as SourceForge. QUICK_EDIT
Do we have a file repository already setup for OTS, or some sort of configuration management? It would be cool if we have something like that in place, just to manage all the source we are writing, such as SourceForge.
i'd prefer to wait with that until TSO actually has something to show besides terrain _________________ Micro TS
Portable, no campaign, movies or music, just the engine and needed resources for skirmish and lan. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Location: Flying into hostile territory
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject:
Judeau wrote:
first, on the subject of AI
On targeting logic : i'll have the ai for each unit properly evaluate nearby threats, individually per turret and the turret's weapons, and if something is manually targeted, all turrets will aim at that target, i also plan to have moving attacks, like in RA2
Actually there was a small typo with my post I meant Anti Aircraft Targeting with AA defenses. You can't manually control what they shoot. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
first, on the subject of AI
On targeting logic : i'll have the ai for each unit properly evaluate nearby threats, individually per turret and the turret's weapons, and if something is manually targeted, all turrets will aim at that target, i also plan to have moving attacks, like in RA2
Actually there was a small typo with my post I meant Anti Aircraft Targeting with AA defenses. You can't manually control what they shoot.
that's easy enough to do _________________ Micro TS
Portable, no campaign, movies or music, just the engine and needed resources for skirmish and lan. QUICK_EDIT
I was thinking about AI having "scouting missions" in skirmish battles, like they first start searching your base and then they attack. It is very unfair that AI always knows where your base is. QUICK_EDIT
I was thinking about AI having "scouting missions" in skirmish battles, like they first start searching your base and then they attack. It is very unfair that AI always knows where your base is.
definetly, accepted _________________ Micro TS
Portable, no campaign, movies or music, just the engine and needed resources for skirmish and lan. QUICK_EDIT
script engine to code weapon and unit behaviour in rules.ini
like
Code:
weapon=HoverMissile.projectile
var int timer=0;
while weapon.Missile.isFlying()==true do {
if (timer==10) {weapon.Missile.direction+=random()*90-45;timer=0}
timer++;
}
weapon.Missile.target.x+=random()*100-50;
weapon.Missile.target.y+=random()*100-50;
causing a Missile while flying to turn every 10 frames a bit in a different direction +-45°, making it a swarming inaccurate missile.
and the final target point is set +-50 length units around the target
Code:
if (HTNK.hitpoints<HTNK.maxHitpoints/2)
{
HTNK.turret.direction.limit(45);
}
or a code causing a Mammoth to be unable to turn the turret more than +-45° while under half power.
Or usable for units with limited turret turning directions like a StarWars ATAT or Animals and Tiberium Creatures where the head is the turret.
Code:
[HMEC]
name=Mammoth MKII
Hitpoints=1000
...
HMEC.walkanim=HMEC.animation(1);
if HMEC.hitpoints<HMEC.maxHitpoints/3 {HMEC.walkanim=HMEC.animation(2);}
causing a Mammoth MKII to use an alternative walkanim while damaged, that looks like a limping leg animation.
Different Walkanims are done using different scripts that define the movement of the bones of a 3d-model. Each anim-script defines frame by frame the position/rotation of the different bones of a 3d-model.
Those animation-scripts can then be used for firing-animations too. Or idle animations etc _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Each anim-script defines frame by frame the position/rotation of the different bones of a 3d-model.
I really think that everything should be time-based, rather than frame-based. That way things won't go super fast on computers in the future, and also allows for interesting effects like changing the passage of time. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I agree with time based. Everything should be done in seconds (mayby to 2 decimal places at least to allow for rapid fire weapons etc) as it's easyer to work things out than when it's in frames and some things like super weapon timers seem to be in minutes.
Also can we please have sound effects and animations effected by game speed as some things get screwed up when you change the speed in ts (eg trying to make a fully automatic weapon rather than one fireing short bursts) QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Location: in your closet... Post = true
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:24 pm Post subject:
Judeau, you asked how the Research should be handled.
My opinion is, the original TS is a fast game (sadly) where you do not spend any time on klicking researchbuttons, but it may worth it changing that by giving the players to "choose between things". That could be special units like the mammoth MK2, a DropShockTroopers, some kind of Zonetrooper or whatever. But it could also be something similar to the generals in ZH.
The reason why I do ask about this is, that those things are possible in TS, but you got to solve these things by Buildlimits and Prequerisites, which does not work properly every time. Addint such possibilities to the Research-center or similar buildings would help.
In Addition you could give the opportunity to improve certain units - Id suggest an automated version where players would just get new Units, techs or improvements for their units after a certain amount of time. That amount of time _may_ depend on either how many funds the player providet his research, which units he used the most or what he made the Research-centre research on: Engineering, Ballistics, Tiberium & Tiberiumlifeforms...
These are just my Ideas about research. Hopefully theyre helpfull to you. Good luck with the project so far _________________ audiopulse sagt:
your raging arse is creating storms?
Luke | CCHyper sagt:
yup, neptune size! QUICK_EDIT
Judeau, you asked how the Research should be handled.
My opinion is, the original TS is a fast game (sadly) where you do not spend any time on klicking researchbuttons, but it may worth it changing that by giving the players to "choose between things". That could be special units like the mammoth MK2, a DropShockTroopers, some kind of Zonetrooper or whatever. But it could also be something similar to the generals in ZH.
The reason why I do ask about this is, that those things are possible in TS, but you got to solve these things by Buildlimits and Prequerisites, which does not work properly every time. Addint such possibilities to the Research-center or similar buildings would help.
In Addition you could give the opportunity to improve certain units - Id suggest an automated version where players would just get new Units, techs or improvements for their units after a certain amount of time. That amount of time _may_ depend on either how many funds the player providet his research, which units he used the most or what he made the Research-centre research on: Engineering, Ballistics, Tiberium & Tiberiumlifeforms...
These are just my Ideas about research. Hopefully theyre helpfull to you. Good luck with the project so far
I'll definetly take some of those ideas. _________________ Micro TS
Portable, no campaign, movies or music, just the engine and needed resources for skirmish and lan. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Location: in your closet... Post = true
Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:30 am Post subject:
To add depth on the game later on:
Make some Units "talk", if youre getting close with your cam. Ive seen that at Middleearth, where you can hear the sergeant cry out orders across the wide floor. That creates a remarkable feeling to the game. _________________ audiopulse sagt:
your raging arse is creating storms?
Luke | CCHyper sagt:
yup, neptune size! QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Location: in your closet... Post = true
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject:
To be able to place Sound-sources across the map. Howling sources at cliffs, or distant barking and or Sirenes howling at abandoned cities _________________ audiopulse sagt:
your raging arse is creating storms?
Luke | CCHyper sagt:
yup, neptune size! QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Location: somewhere south of the north pole
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject:
I have an idea:
Texture: Make it selectable: 1*1 -> 32*32 (It would make the mapfile somwhat bigger, but with a good zip-compresion of a PNG, that won't be a big problem
Also, I hope the codes would be as close to YR/FS codes, I kinda don't want to learn a new code-language befor I can start to do more that simple editing (HP, cost demage ect.)
The idea of an "auto AI" is very good. <The intelligense of it would be limited, but would be good as "easy AI" or even "meduim AI" Hard and Brute should be coded by humans, as that would include über advance codes Like tactiks and such :p _________________ This is a signature QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Location: in your closet... Post = true
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject:
Make it possible to insert custom textures, modells and/or sounds, if necessary. Doesnt have to be easy to be done. If someone needs custom made additions, he should be experienced enough to know how to add them, or who he/she has to ask to implement them.
Also: dont forget about to add enough parameters to add to units at the Inis, to have them affect AI & Surroundings. Example:
Unit affects AI-behaviour: A harvester is an expensive unit. If hes attacked nearby units will try to give the harvester cover, which should be retreating by then already. Same goes for the MCV.
Aside that - what about Infantry seeking shelter near tanks? In reality you can sometimes see infantry ducking at the side of tanks or jeeps, seeking for cover... _________________ audiopulse sagt:
your raging arse is creating storms?
Luke | CCHyper sagt:
yup, neptune size! QUICK_EDIT
All are very interesting suggestions, but, I must apologize for the little work I've done on this project, but I hope to work on it sometime soon again.
Which, sadly , could be anything between one and three years. _________________ Micro TS
Portable, no campaign, movies or music, just the engine and needed resources for skirmish and lan. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Location: in your closet... Post = true
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject:
Funny - it seems that this happens to nearly every big mod im watching. The crews dont stop working, but work progresses veeery slowly... xD
...as long as itll be finished, have it your way! _________________ audiopulse sagt:
your raging arse is creating storms?
Luke | CCHyper sagt:
yup, neptune size! QUICK_EDIT
Funny - it seems that this happens to nearly every big mod im watching. The crews dont stop working, but work progresses veeery slowly... xD
...as long as itll be finished, have it your way!
Well, yeah, working on TSD after all _________________ Micro TS
Portable, no campaign, movies or music, just the engine and needed resources for skirmish and lan. QUICK_EDIT
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Need clearly defined wishes for TSO
